Hello!

I want to discuss a few things from the survey with everyone, and first on that list is color genetics. On the survey, the majority of players said they would be interested in genetics, so I think it's worth talking about.

This would be a massive undertaking and there are several complications with it, but I have designed a genetics system for another game in the past and I still have the notes, so we wouldn't be starting from scratch. So let's talk about all of this below:

First of all, just as a general overview, it would specifically be realistic color genetics for horses and dogs. Basically, the spot on horse and dog pages where it says "Color:" would be filled in automatically. We would not be focusing the gameplay on it, or making it a necessary part of the game. It would be an optional feature for people who want to participate.

There are two ways we could do this - either we could let players pick what color they wanted when they bought a horse/dog in the store out of the colors for that breed, or we could assign it randomly based on the breed (this is the more likely option). Then, when you bred your horses and dogs, the foals and pups would have realistic colors based on their parents' colors.

Would this complicate game play?

Only if you wanted it to. Because HP is meant to be an old school and simple game, we would have to make it a completely optional feature. So basically, you can play with it if you want, or you could choose to ignore it entirely. We would also release guides on understanding genetics for those who want to, but again, it would not be something you had to understand in order to play or even pay attention to.

What if I don't know anything about genetics?

We would release guides if you wanted to understand them, but you could also choose to ignore the feature completely if you don't.

Would this make it harder to play for mobile users?

No.

Would this slow the game down?

It shouldn't. It might take a second longer to breed or buy a horse/dog, but other than that, there's not going to be anything fancy running behind the scenes.

How would this affect graphics?

It won't because nothing about our graphics system would change. We wouldn't be providing an image generator or forcing players to use our images, everything would be the same as it is now in that regard. Players could use our silhouetted defaults, or make their own images. Same as now.

What if I don't like the color I get?

I think that's part of the fun if you want to play with the genetics compoenent, but potentially we could have a color change item in the cash shop. Although that would detract from the realism.

There are a few complications:

Complication #1: I don't know how we would apply this to horses and dogs who already exist on the game. I can't think of a way to give pedigrees realistic color genetics for past pedigrees. Players could go and pick for each animal if they wanted to, and we could force them to choose before doing a breeding or retirement breeding, but potentially there will be some unrealistic color combinations in old lines if people set older horses manually. But again, people could choose not to do that for their old lines if they didn't want to.

Complication #2: It would only be partially realistic because not all of the breeds we have are mapped geneitcally (and some are made up completely) so we would have to make some assumptions about certain breeds. We have A LOT of breeds, this would take a long time to implement, and again, it wouldn't be a perfect system. It's something that would need to be perfected as we went.

But the positive would be that it would add another layer of gameplay for those who wanted to participate, and at this point in time a lot of newer games include them, so it would make HP's features a little more modern. BUT the point of HP is for it to be a nostalgic game, so I think there's a delicate balance in keeping it simple, and providing optional features to keep things interesting.

So, with all of that being said, I have some questions for you:

For those of you who said yes to genetics: What do you envision the "point" being? What is your goal with genetics? In what ways would you want or expect it to influence gameplay?

For those of you who don't want genetics: What are some of your concerns? What makes you not want genetics on the game? What are some things you don't want to change that you think genetics would affect?

I think the whole idea is very intriguing. Wouldn't make or break hp for me though.

I play other games that have colour genetics...Equination and Howrse. Both games are vastly different than HP though. 

Like Howrse, the colours are assigned at birth and what you get is in part the parents, in part the % odds of each colour for that breed. So quite often you're breeding for certain colours (or if you're me, to own all of the breeds/colours to get all the breed trophies). 

Equination is just Thoroughbreds and at the end of the day the colours are irrelevant to your horse being a good racer.

-totally unhelpful-

I personally am on the yes side of this fence. But I also don’t think the the addition of genetics would greatly affect my game play. The point for me, would be that it’s there for people. And maybe I want to create a ‘grey’ line of horses. I do think that with random generated from the store you will have an issue with mass purchases animals and people only keeping the colours they want. This is about as much as I have thought about it so far. 

I don't remember my survey answer on this, but really I'm on the fence on whether it should be added or not. In real life, genetics can be used for better performance or a certain "look" that breeders want to obtain for whatever purpose. On the negative side of the gene spectrum, it can also cause loss of offspring or sterile animals from a known fatal gene. So I suppose the envision at the end of the day is players who simply just love playing with genetics and want realism, however I don't really see the "point" of it other than another optional breeding element to keep line interest.

I see a multitude of problems with this, which has be concern more about the long-term effects of the implementation than the short-terms. The first concern is the actual implementation itself. If the default images would remain the silhouette and have no new art, then I don't see how this would be vastly different than what we can already create through purchasing/making images. Zad also brings up a very valid point, which I agree with, on the fact that if we did implement a "color wheel" it would not be our own choice and if at the same time we could just use a "coat changer" feature in the Cash Shop to change it it basically defeats the purpose. We technically can already implement this manually by putting in the color or graphic ourselves, so my concern is how this would be an added element if there's no real or physical changes to the images. If the manual typing of colors is the issue, then we should just add in said "color wheel" in the Cash Shop to automatically generate it on that horse of choice. The second issue I have is the realism itself. As I stated above, certain genes can be fatal and cause health issues, loss of offspring, sterile animals, etc. Two of these have already been disabled in the game, so this would defeat the purpose of realism and to have it re-added would be potentially harmful to the overall ability of breeding lines. Not to mention, if the health issues were to be added, having to pay around $2500 HPD weekly in vet bills on a horse due to its fatal gene carrying would possibly cause economy inflation to go higher. Plus, if we had horses with this problem then there would add the need to put in a gene tester to be able to avoid that. The third concern is the ability to add performance enhancement to add a new element to the genetics itself without being unfair. At this point and time, we have so many ways to rapidly gain points on our animals (i.e tickets, shows, Club registrations, achievements, etc.), not to mention the actual point the parents tax on them too and in the Cash Shop we can add 5 extra shows for that week anyway. Adding all these cons up from a gameplay perspective, this pretty much just turns it away from an old-style SIM game like HL to be a similar schtick like many other games out there and we'd no longer be unique.

Setting the potential gameplay rippling effect long-term wise aside, I mainly don't want it because it is just frustrating and complicated. In the past, I have played many genetic-type games that I could never understand regardless of how many in-depth guides there were or how many books from a library I rented out to read on real horse genetics. To me, it seems unless you really know animal husbandry super well, genetics is too complicated and frustrated for someone new to it.

I'm sorry to be that Debbie Downer to anyone excited for this feature, and it's not to offend anyone who is in favor, but I just see more cons than pros right now to the actual concept.

Genetics confuzzle the heck out of me XD

so I'm neutral to them being added as long as they're an extra feature and not something mandatory for me to use to continue my usual game-playing. 

Alright, strap in for an essay :P

On the topic of learning horse color genetics - 

So some people already know that I'm almost done writing an optional genetics engine called Prism that you can check out here (it's almost done, I just have to add odds/breed separations for the KIT gene colors; from there, it's just a matter of adding breeds as we research their specific color genetics). 

I only recently got into color genetics by playing a different game that is heavily based on color genetics. I started that game knowing exactly nothing about equine color genetics, and inside of 1-2 months, I felt comfortable enough to write my own color genetics engine. I will say that the guides they had on that game were very nice and helped me understand what was going on - the most helpful tool was the combo chart which basically showed all the base colors you could get and what genes you needed to get those base colors. Even though their guides were incomplete (yep - not every gene had a page/info to explain its purpose), it was still helpful enough to keep me interested the game.

Getting the hang of color genetics is a combo of good information and experimentation on your part. Breeding animals with different genetics to get different colors, then going to the guide to figure out how that gene combo created that color. The more you do it, the more comfortable you get with it and the more you understand about the genetics.

On the topic of horse colors affecting health/performance - 

Yes, there are color genes that affect more than just the horse's color (like stamina, build, etc). There are color genes that can affect a horse's health. The Overo gene is also called the Overo Lethal White gene because a foal born homozygous dominant for that gene (OLW/OLW) will die. While writing Prism, I made the executive decision to remove that part of the realism for the simple fact that I'm not gonna make you delete your horse if the foal is assigned OLW/OLW lol. Similarly, I don't think that particular facet - or indeed other facets of how color genetics influence horse health/performance - would be included in HP gameplay - simply for the fact that that would mean that color genetics would affect normal gameplay.

So basically, I don't believe you'll have to worry about horse performance/health being adjusted based on their color. What Sam is talking about is just a superficial addition to gameplay; nothing deeper than just an automatically filled in field on a horse's page.

On the topic of what the point is - 

The point is just to be one more thing to breed for. Instead of breeding just for points, you can also breed to try and get specific colors. You can create a line with the intent to eventually have all foals from that line be one color, like Zad said. My goal with Prism was to make my Badman Knabstrupper line be wholly Fewspot Appaloosas (LP/LP PATN1/PATN1 the way I had written the program). Of course, you'd start with random genetics purchased from the store, and you groom them each generation to pass on more of the genes you want (or pick the best genes from the horses you bought at store and use them to start a promising line).

Or, if you have say four horses of roughly equal points and it comes time to pair them up for breeding - you can use color genetics to decide who to breed together instead of just pairing high points/low points etc. So if you have two tobianos and two blue roans, you can breed a tobiano to a blue roan and hope for a blue roan tobiano, or pair the tobianos and blue roans together to have a tobiano foal and a blue roan foal.

You can sell horses for their color - advertise for a blue roan tobiano and someone with a blue roan tobiano can offer to sell you theirs or put him up for stud :D At best, it would be a great way to encourage line-mixing among players :D

It really is just another level to gameplay that doesn't affect shows/points/established gameplay. It's something else to work towards, to breed for. And it's totally and completely optional - if you do breed for color genetics, then you can state it on your page or in the divider ^^ If you don't, then you play as normal and ignore that little box that we've all been ignoring so far anyways xD

On the topic of how it should influence gameplay -

Frankly, not at all. It should just be a filled-in field on the horse's page and therefore completely your choice to use it or not. Anything else would mean changing how horses earn points/how much energy they have/odds of winnng or placing in shows (due to how color genetics affect horse health/performance) - all of which seriously affects gameplay for everybody else who doesn't use color genetics. It would be unfair to them. 

Allowing color genetics to affect anything other than a filled-in field on a page would fundamentally change how HP works. Different breeds would perform either better or worse in our generic shows - so to make it fair for every breed to be able to get high points, you'd have to add specialized shows (at best, breed specific shows - at worst, discipline specific shows like dressage and cutting, which would require players to set a discipline for every horse before entering shows. This is how the game I mentioned earlier is set up). 

I'm spiralling into worst-case-scenario here simply to illustrate that color genetics SHOULD NOT influence gameplay in ANY WAY, and choosing to use color genetics should be solely decided by each player themselves.

On the topic of complications - 

It won't be super realistic - In order to minimize the effect that adding color genetics would have on HP - to preserve the normal gameplay for everyone, especially those who don't use color genetics - we'd have to accept that it's only going to be partially realistic. Like I mentioned with genes affecting horse health/performance, there's no way to implement true realism without changing how HP works to keep it fair for everyone. I'm more than okay with breaking some genetic rules or disregarding some things (like the lethal part of Overo Lethal White :P)

Implementing color genetics on existing horses - I like the idea of having players choose a color for both parents at time of breeding; however perhaps make it optional? That would mean also allowing non-colored horses to continue (and perhaps make it nicer for players who choose not to use color genetics). When non-colored horses are bred, the breeder is presented with the choice every time to give the horses a color, and every time they can choose to do so or to have a non-colored foal.

Yes, letting players choose the color of their horses at breeding would result in higher percentages of "rare" horse colors - for example, let's say a lot of players would love to have a guaranteed gray brindle foal and so they make both parents gray brindle. It is what it is. Like I said, the mechanic won't be totally realistic - the most important part of it is just the combining of parent genes to create a foal who has the correct odds of being a certain combo of those genes.

TL;DR -

• You learn about color genetics as you go :D
• It's just a filled-in part of the horse's page so it shouldn't affect horse's health/performance.
• It won't affect gameplay for people who choose not to use it.
• It's an additional goal to breed horses/lines for.
• It won't be 100% real, and that's perfect :D
• Players can choose to leave horse colorless or pick a color for both horses at time of breeding for horses already in-game.

I've been typing this for fifteen minutes now and I still might come back and add stuff :P I'm super passionate about adding color genetics to HP, so I'm tracking this thread and am more than willing to discuss everything about it!

Personally, I think it sounds complicated, and expensive to get coded in, and I can think of other areas on HP that I'd rather see money spent. :P It's not a feature I see myself using, definitely not up my alley. I think that maybe if there were (way!) less breeds, and HP had breed-specific pictures (not the image bank - like, I buy a clydesdale from the store and it automatically has a clydesdale image) that it could be cool - you breed, and the picture has THAT specific color or whatever. Obviously, with this many breeds, that's never going to happen. Having it just be a thing on it's page sounds super boring to me. 

But obviously since I don't have to use it, if it's what most people want, you do you! :)

So I have some points to make, and I'm gonna go through the original post and each comment...

If we make genetics optional, how would that affect things if say, I used genetics, and I bought an animal from a player who doesn't, and wanted to breed that animal to one of mine? I also think that letting people pick a color for their store animals is fine, but after that, the foals/pups color should reflect the parents' genes. Or it could be that even store animals come with preset color genes, chosen at random. People have no issues deleting animals they don't need, and since stores are so cheap, they could buy another until they found the right one. At least in certain breeds, the available color range is so small that it should be easy to get what you want. I also don't think that there should be a cash shop item to change colors, because what is the point of adding genetics if you can play God with them to that extent? In that case, don't add genetics at all. HOWEVER, I do see how genetics pose an issue to certain mythical breeds. At least with unicorns, you could give them regular horse colors. Or you could make up completely new genetics for mythicals.

As for the potential issue with graphics: If genetics are added, there kinda has to be a game-generated image. Say you buy an Icelandic from the store and it turns out to be a black tobiano; the default image should reflect that. This will of course mean spending money on commissions, but if people really want this, it's worth it? For those who say this will cut graphics sales, maybe we could do something like HL had after the changes, where there was the game-generated image of your animal, but you could also upload a pic made by an artist? However, people will still need/want layout images, so it's not like graphics makers would be completely out of a market. I also think a game-generated image would be nice for players who can't afford graphics at the moment. It's still a default image, but it's nicer/more interesting than just a black silhouette.

Equ and Mango brought up a point about lethal genes, such as Overo Lethal White. This is only lethal if the foal gets two copies of the gene, so 1) we would need a genetics tester (the other game I play has one) to make sure only one parent has it. Or we could just not add it in, considering the way people breed (i.e. train for points and breed at 20 or 15 and just keep that baby - it would suck if it died due to OLW). However, if it was added in, it's just a little more strategy needed than just breeding for points. Sam mentioned that there would be guides, so one could always consult them before breeding. Again, if your breed isn't known to contain OLW (or any other problematic genes - not that I know of any), then it won't be an issue for you. P.S. a foal born with 2 copies of OLW is euthanized in rl, since it wouldn't survive. Equ and Mango ALSO mention performance enhancement, but if we only add color genetics, there won't be a performance enhancement so long as you don't breed two horses/dogs together that would create a dead, sterile or otherwise unworthy-for-performance foal/pup.

Lastly, I agree with Mango about this adding an extra element of interest to HP, rather than simply breeding for points. I know this might be difficult and time-consuming to implement, but this might be what HP needs to stay alive. Yes, it's an old school game, but that doesn't mean it needs to be stuck in the past forever. If we want more players to join and actually stick around, this could be good for HP. More members = more upgrade sales = more money to improve the game.

I personally don't want genetics added. I feel like it's not needed on this game. There are plenty of games out there where genetics exist (an overwhelming amount honestly). If I wanted that type of play, I would play those games. HP is not so demanding that you couldn't play both HP and a genetic-based game if that was what you wanted to experience as well.

The way it's being described, I feel like there is no way it gets added to HP in any capacity that makes it worth the time and money invested. Not to mention, each breed has certain genetic markers for certain colors/markings which mean you would need to figure that out for every current and future breed and program that in. That is a ridiculous amount of work. Also without having images to showcase the color you've been generated, it really takes away from the feeling of it. Financially that would be way too much given how many breeds we have and how our process of adding more works. Most genetic games really limit the number of breeds that are available and add them in slowly as it's possible to do so for this very reason. HP doesn't function that way.

It just feels like something we would be shoving into HP to appeal to a small portion of our population and we wouldn't be doing it in a way that does it any justice. It would be taking resources away from additions/upgrades that would actually benefit the game more substantially. It's just not worth it. Sorry. D:

Since I haven’t had coffee and just rolled outta bed. I’ll agree with the no s and all their points. There’s already games out there with it. 

Tana, HP is doing just fine. I feel like you may be one of the only ones who keeps saying that its Dying. I've seen more growth in the game from when I first activily came back in 2016. Based on the mixed response to Genetics overall, I think its far from what HP 'needs to stay alive' anyway. 

I for one am FOR genetics being added simply for the fun of it! I think it would be a great little thing to see what color you get when you breed. However, I'm AGAINST it because of the fact that there is already enough games with it. Its something we can already add in ourselves anyway, plus the time, and money it would cost to map out and implement it into the system is far greater than it would be worth at this time. Maybe you could put it on the back burner for now and maybe think of adding it for 2021 or 22? Something to slowly add in over time? I dunno. I'm mixed on it.... The game doesn't NEED it though. 

Mango provides some great detail and information that feels like how we should have the genetics be for HP. I'm not super great with understanding genetics, but if they provide an extra thing for a player to work on and invest interest in and it doesn't necessarily affect how HP already runs, it's worth the effort to give it a try!

If genetics were to be added, I do like having a detailed guide available to learn from and refrence back to!

I love that HP has a lot of artistic creativity availability, and having a generic breed picture based on whatever color already provided would limit the option to use the HP Image Bank or cause some players to be like this is fine I don't need a personalised picture anymore. I feel like that would hinder some of our artists who provide some great images for other players.

Do we need them to survive? No. HP has been going on for a decade and the updates to the game have been great so far and a vast majority of the players agree that we are doing just fine. Would they be a nice perk for added gameplay? Yes. For those that want the added option, it could be fun to see how things progress! I like that we would have the option to continue as we are or to use the genetics if they get added in.

It sounds to me like the opinion is more positive/neutral than negative, but if it doesn't end up getting implemented, I'll keep Prism around and everyone who wants to would be more than welcome to use the Prism engine/resources.

I'll probably post a more in-depth reply when I get back to my computer, but I do have this:

If implementing a genetics mechanic into all animals is too uncomfortable for most players, then would it be possible to make it even more optional by making the genetics player-inserted? Pretty much just expand on the Color field? 

I'm still thinking about it, but my current idea would be to have a form for all color genes (maybe on its own page like the pedigree), and players can input their own genes or have the game auto-populate the fields (pretty much a "Random Color My Horse" button). When it comes time to breed animals, the game goes to genetics page and calculates the offspring's genes based on both parents. I'm not sure whether the genetics would continue to be editable after submitting/breeding (although I would guess yes, just for convenience). If the genetics page of one/both of the parents is blank, the foal remains colourless (or there could be a prompt saying "yooo your mare/stallion doesn't have genes! that ok?").

Con: more player control means less realism, more playing God with genetics, more confusing/difficult to use for beginners

Pro: makes color genetics even more optional, less invasive to normal gameplay by giving players pretty much total control over whether to use it or not, and what colours/genes their animals have

I'm with Pants on this one. Genetics confuse me. I don't think I would be partaking if it ever came around to HP.

Okay, so definitely keep the feedback coming! I want to hear from everybody.

I think ultimately, it would sort of be a "collect them all" type of thing as far as colors are concerned on HP, since we don't want it to change the gameplay, although, I will try to think about ways that color genetics could add some more depth without being required. For sure we could add achievements for breeding certain colors. I've got a migraine coming so creativity is at an all-time low right now, but I will keep thinking about it!

Omg achievements for certain colors would be amazing pls

If what Mango said is possible and we could get certain  achievements for colors, I would be completely fine with it. My main concern was the overall effect of the game and it being frustrating like the other games. Or that it would ripple an unfair advantage, but so far I really like these alternatives! They ease a a lot of my prior worries.

I think I am on the boat of keep it an optional thing to partake in. I would love to do something like what mango has been working on with prism, but not make it a central part of the game. That way people who want to can partake, and those who don't aren't required to without a negative effect in their gameplay.

I would be for semi-realistic genetic colors (no lethal white, ect incase someone does not want to take part). I've always wished players shared lines more and were more involved in each others stuff more than just points. Even if someone doesn't care about colors, others may ask for breedings/offspring because they're searching for certain colors.

I wouldn't be so concerned about achivements for special colors because not all breeds are going to have those colors available and would created an unfair advantage for certain players. Breeding like 10 black horses could be one though xD

I agree with no lethal white for sure! I wonder if there’s a way we can still educate about that without implementing it?

I also think achievements like that would be good, or just similar ones for every color. Since people who breed Thoroughbreds will never get Leopard Complex or Paint achievements, just like Appaloosa breeders will never get chestnut achievements, so I think it would all even out in the end?

i want to say based off color also, i want to say ive seen random paints (not race but jumpers?) in tbs?