Hi all!

Player hat Blitz here writing this as a long-time player of HP, not the admin-hat-wearing Blitz.

We have a problem.

Inflation is high around the world and it has made its way to our game. Remember when, at the beginning of Covid when people were mass-buying and hoarding toilet paper and reselling it for obscene prices? Our HP equivalent has become the upgrade auctions.

Prices of upgrades are sky-high in rates we haven't seen for 10 years. Upwards of $350 mill for a 6-month upgrade? It's obscene. And it needs to stop. It creates a huge divide between "rich" and "non-rich" players and could lead to the end of the game if players choose to quit because they can't afford upgrdaes with RL money or HP money.

"But Blitz! That's mighty rich of you to say while you sit on your mountain of money!" you're probably thinking.

Well, you're right. I can't (and won't) tell people how to spend their money (RL or HP!), but I will say this:

I, Blitz, HP Player, pledge to both not pay inflated rates for upgrades, and not accept inflated bids on any upgrades I put in auction.

Who's with me??

#SayNoToPriceGouging

I like the idea of person providing the upgrade getting the hpb  and not the person receiving upgrade.

Useful to know cyber Monday is soon. 

I've not sold any for some time but hoping I'll be able to sell a few extras soon.

Also, a massive thanks to all the staff for their working with the players so HP Continues to be awesome.

I love the idea of the person doing the upgrade getting some sort of incentive. I mean we get the HPD sure, but points to an existing animal (especially if people are doing projects) would be extremely helpful. Or even if the person doing the upgrade gets the HPD instead that's also a great incentive. I've only sold one upgrade, but agree that I like the shift in prices, cause it's the only way I've been able to bring money in on this game. But I understand as a buyer, the money doesn't go nearly as far.. and can make it tough to keep several upgrades. It's a difficult spot to be in. 

I do not think it's the correct call to remove the HPB from the upgrade receiver and provide it only to the upgrade seller. This would heavily cut into the profits of owning an upgrade and make it far less appealing versus just selling the upgrades to others instead. If this is changed, upgrade owners would lose a flat 150mil per 6 months. If they couldn't afford upgrades when they were priced at 300mil, what makes you think that losing half of that amount in profit will help? Punishing the people who own upgrades is not going to help this situation.

That's a fair point, Jade. I can just as easily leave the HPB the way it is. I can't give both sides HPB though, that would introduce too much HPB into the economy.

So sounds like so far an store pair of horses/dogs with ponits and how many ponits on it depends on of it one / six or 12 month upgrades for the seller? Waits to see what will be figred out

What about lessening the amount of HPB, that way both sides can be given HPB when upgrading?
Example, 1mos both sides get 1 since can't really go any lower lol, 6mos get 3, and 1yrs get 6?
Which might lessen the flood of HPB into the economy and both sides win?

Edited To Add:
I like the certian number of points idea if not many are a fan of the Pointed Store Pair idea!
Which players can save up through the end of the trial period timeline or for up to one calendar year which time would start when the seller messages one of us Admins stating they sold x upgrade to x player and we have the info recorded in the Mod Squad forums...but it will be up to the seller to then later message one of us to re-claim the prize when they are ready for the points!

I like the idea of the HPB being split between buyer and seller. That seems fair to me.

Selling upgrades or trading them for services is my main source of income because I don't make graphics or layouts and etc. That being said, the store pairs with points doesn't really appeal to me personally because I would end up with a bunch of extra horses I don't need. I sell 4 to 5 upgrades a week to pay for tickets and shows so I would end up with an enormous herd lol! 

On the other side of this, I can see how a store pair with points might appeal to someone who only sells a single upgrade once in a while. 

Would it be too much trouble with coding and whatnot to give the seller a choice between splitting the  HPB with the buyer or getting the store pair with points? Or having the points added to an existing animal?

I could easily give the upgrader the choice between a store pair with X points vs having points added to an existing animal. It would be done manually so easy enough.

Coding the HPB I think could be fairly simple as well to split it, but there's no way of making it optional person-to-person.

Jumping in late to the party. I must live under an HP boulder, I didn't realize that upgrades were going for THAT much these days. I do feel bad becuase when I first joined HP and when I came back earlier in the summer, I had expendable income that allowed me to sell upgrades (not nearly as much as others but still). But in June I quit my toxic job and took a job paying nearly half of what I was making (but I'm much happier). However that change left me to not have as much disposable income and I barely keep my own accounts upgraded now days.

Selling the occasional upgrade is basically the only way I make money here. I'm not skilled in the graphics department, and as much as I try to learn to code...forget about it. haha.

I do like the HPB idea though! :)

I have a lot of thoughts that I'll organize later today, but to play on the idea of points added to an animal of choice for upgrade sellers (this may be all over the place, trying to get baby ready for school)-

If our root issue is a lack of upgrades (which it is), I feel like for it to be attractive, the amount of points available to be added to an animal of choice would need to be substantial. Say, for example: 100k per 6 month, 200k per year, 30k per 1 month.

So: for 1M extra points, a player can sell 10x 6m upgrades and net HP revenues of $170 (and so on...)

BUT- limits also become important, otherwise we'll see an influx of ridiculous pointed animals that would kill the ticket incentives, private shows, and overall interest in HAVING upgraded accounts, etc. because hitting ranks would become unattainable. (You also probably don't want to kill the market for the players that do have a large quantity of upgrades- that brings HP a significant amount of consistent RL revenue)

So- say the limit is then points added to non-retired animals only. Players can still spend HPB for resurrection passes and de-ages (which in turn, will drain some HPB out of the market). Also, if you truly care about "fairness" and equality gaps, rolling something like this out without limits is reckless. BUT the limits are important to establish and roll out at the START.  It's much easier to lift regulations that were always set than it is to place new regulations on programs that have existed for a period of time without limitation (and better for player happiness/morale).

In this scenario, we keep HPB to upgrade buyers and point incentives to sellers (keeping both parties happy and the transactions rolling).  Even as a trial run, maybe this would work? It may not fix things long term, upgrade sales may be more focused around project animals and still be inconsistent, but it could be a start to trying to incentivize the quantity of upgrades hitting the market.

If the goal is "fairness", you have to remember the point of an auction is to go to the highest bidder. More upgrades= less competition, less competition= driving down the going rate.

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Also edited for personal use reflection- I would be more inclined to use my HPB for a resurrection (followed by a de-age) to use some of my tighter RL money funds to actually sell upgrades (increasing SUPPLY) in order to bump my retired mustangs to the next million. Then, spend more HPB (or HPD) to do retirement breedings.  I am someone who prefers quality in a more well-rounded quantity of animals versus 1 or 2 high pointed animals only. In practice, this will help drain money OUT of the economy (curbing potential inflation) and protect the "fairness" of auctions, also while increasing the supply of upgrades.

to be honest though, no matter which way you cut it, there will always be winners and losers as HP has a pay to play structure (if you want to hit that "next level" with more ease).  You just have to give it careful thought and consideration to reach a decision that will benefit the game and protect the game's interests and longevity. With risk comes reward, but for every action is ALWAYS an equal and opposite reaction- so, I guess just keep that in mind. 

I've actually been thinking a lot over the night for ideas for possible solutions. Something that would be easily trackable for the staff, and rewarding enough for the person offering the upgrade, without taking away from the upgrade buyers.

What about punch cards? Which sound dumb now that I put it down into text to be honest. BUT maybe someone can take my barely thought out idea and make it something special?

Buy 15 one month upgrades get something

Buy 10 six month upgrades get something

Buy 5 one year upgrades get something

Something could be a grab bag like we do for discount candy day? Points to an animal, extra tickets, hpb, hpd, random cashshop items, store pairs with points? Of course the quanity of uppies required would probably have to be adjusted - 10 / 7 / 4 maybe? And ... you'd have to really think about the one month price vs the others - it takes ~3 one months to get to the price of a six month so... like 5 one years = 10 six months = 30 one months, but I don't know if that high number would appeal to sellers. Maybe just have it mentions somewhere on there that the one months have lower value items since if  you do just 15 it's half the cost of the other two?

To claim your punch to your punch card - like in real life (you have to present your card or you get no punch) - you'd need to message the staff member who'd be in charge of said thing and claim your punch.  Staff would track it, but to be honest I think that the seller would have to as well. Just because you have a full punch card, a restaruant doesn't remind you you have one! So I think BOTH sides should track it and the upgrade seller should have to reach out to the same staff member and be like 'yo, I have x amount, can I get my grab bag now?'

I dunno, just starting my day. Everything is still really hectic over here - but it sounded smart in my head last night when I laid down to crash so I thought I'd pitch it out there in the spirit of community input.

Everyone here has made some fantastic points, and there is no easy answer, as with everything in life. 
How I am looking at this, is it is like the housing market in RL right now. It most certainly is a sellers market. People are paying obscene amounts, sight unseen, for houses and property, completely taking anyone who would have to go to the bank, and qualify for a loan out of the running as there aren't that many houses even available! In our little town, the houses is almost non existent, and as soon as something is posted for sale, it is sold sight unseen by out of staters before anyone local even has a chance. 

Do I like the prices as high as they are, absolutely not. Am I surprised, also absolutely not.  This to me, is expected. When there are few people selling, and there is a huge demand for them, people are going to spike up prices because they have the money and can afford to pay higher to get what they want. 

I myself have stopped trying to compete with the $300 prices as I just don't want to spend the savings I have all on upgrades, it goes so fast already. 
As for the upgrader getting additional perks for selling the upgrade, I don't truly think that is necessary, you are already getting hundreds of millions of dollars for selling it, and you know that is your "perk" for selling it. It's fast, easy money, and more than many players can earn in a few months. 
I myself know that if the HPB would start going to the person doing the upgrade, and not the person who is having their account upgraded, this may be a breaking point for me. I save up as much HPB as I can, and it's one of the ways I make money on here. 
 
I cannot make graphics or sell upgrades to make money, so all of mine comes from public training in the rare event I have spare time, ticket sales, and private show spots. With ticket sales WAAAY down lately, and it appears not many people are buying shows either, it's a huge hit to my income. 

I think @vida made a solid point that, unfortunately, with whatever changes the team decides to make to incentivize upgrades, not everyone is going to be satisfied.

I, personally, would rather earn HPB for upgrading than more pointed animals like @Fenway brought up, because I'd just end up with a massive herd if I sold 2-4 upgrades every two weeks or so, which unfortunately, isn't maintainable for me with my current schedule. When it comes to buying vs selling upgrades, I think the list of perks are currently heavily in the buyer's favor because they now have options for additional income: public boarding if they choose and the ability to buy and sell tickets and shows, plus a boosted allowance every week. Sellers really only earn HPD, which is very much often dumped right back into the HP economy in the forms of purchasing tickets, shows, and graphic auctions/orders, etc. 

As someone who spends more RLD on upgrades than she does buying HPB, I would be more inclined to sell upgrades if I earned, say, 2 HPB for every 6mo upgrade I sold at auction.

I think the list of perks are currently heavily in the buyer's favor because they now have options for additional income: public boarding if they choose and the ability to buy and sell tickets and shows, plus a boosted allowance every week.

^ This is how it usually is - but upgrade prices are currently going up higher, and the price of everything else is dropping. Tickets, shows, ect. If the HPB leaves the one buying and goes to the seller in the current market then the upgrade is now not worth buying because you would never, ever make back the money from the account. You'd have to have another service or two outside of upgrade perks going to help you break even.

Even with Empire and all the players in it - we have rarely made a profit because we go out of our way to help people get into private training (shows and tickets) and offered discounts and barters to help other players so we rarely netted a 'huge' profit (if we even made one at all) as some of you guys may think. We have people who got free spots for x amount of time, for spots in exchange for training / helping accept shows, ssome that got huge discounts on tickets (ie: 100k per horse ticket, 40k per dog ticket) in the past and also currently in the present. We like to see other people have successes with playing the game. Sure, we could stop doing that, but I'd rather not. I'd rather people get the chance to thrive when they otherwise may not be able to. The only way we've been able to help people who usually wouldn't be able to get into the world of private training is by the HPB coming in and helping pay for the upgrades because the money coming in def. did not. We (a group of players) banded together to help each other keep it all up and going while all maintaining our own accounts. We act as a sort of backup for one another in case something pops up in real life - for example a family emergency or a surgery to put a few recent things out there where my 'partners' saved my butt.

If the HPB has to go to the seller vs the buyer, the prices of everything else (shows, tickets, ect) is going to have to raise up to make up the difference. The market is absolutely bonkers right now and I am sure Myst is feeling it too! I've gone out of my way to make sure that I put whatever extra money I have from whatever back into the game. I buy show spots from numerous other players: Blitz, Lady Rancher, Broken Vow, Maha, ect... and I am always up for getting more. It's important to keep the funds circulating throughout the game. If there is a raffle, I always donate extra tickets so that those who cannot afford them can. I buy graphics, I also can thankfully sell graphics and layouts when I have the time to actually do them and the health (hello my main issue - numerous things have hindered me and my carpal tunnel is the main one for graphics).

@ Vida - SO well put! You have so many great points! 

@ Con - I actually really like that punch card idea! 

@Moorf - as for ticket sales.. don't you worry! Mascot contest starts in Feb? I think.. Jan or Feb.. so that'll be booming here soon! 

If you do make the choice to split the HPB reward between the seller and buyer (three HPB each for a six-month etc), I believe it should provide the full amount to people who upgrade their own accounts. This results in the same amount of HPB entering the community as it is now and encourages people to upgrade their own versus outsourcing if this is a possibility for them. This should hopefully result in more upgrades available for players who cannot do their own because it should be less strain on the supply chain.

I will say I'm not the biggest fan of rewarding points onto animals (retired or not retired) in exchange for selling upgrades even if it would guarantee that upgrades would be sold a lot more aggressively during projects, mascot, etc. I feel like that is a slippery slope that could go very badly. In order to make it worth it, you have to offer enough points, but offering enough points is going to make points too easy to gain which will in turn reduce sales on the products we have to sell from upgrades to make them profitable/sustainable in the process.

At that point, you're offering a direct P2W option. Sure, buying HPD at all is technically P2W, but you still have to seek out the resources (shows, tickets, etc) so 1) it is not an automatic conversion 2) the HPD goes back into the community to help people fund their own upgrades and support the general economy. 200,000 points for a dog is worth over 36 ticket sets which at their cheapest value of 100k is still almost 130k HPD. For a horse at 170k? 459k HPD. If this was implemented, I sincerely believe that the prices of tickets would suffer just as much if not more than they are now because you would need less of them to meet your goal. Creating a second issue to solve the original one isn't the best choice.

The reason why I am so hesitant on a lot of these non-automatic rewards is that it's a lot to track and manage for staff, not to mention for any newer players joining in the process may look complicated. I understand that it's necessary though because coding a lot of these ideas in would cost a lot of money for the site. It's just unfortunate and why I'm personally leaning more towards the options that are automatic and less stress.

I would 100% volunteer to make google sheets for players to use that would make tracking easy

I would 100% volunteer to do the same thing for the staff - and i'd even offer, free of charge and I don't want to be staff, to be the person people message about it if they didn't want the responsiblity of it.

I'm with Jade on the matter of point rewards in return for upgrades purchased. As mentioned, yes HP is already fundamentally pay to win to a certain degree, as the cost of tickets, private shows, etc, racks up very quickly. But at least those avenues to gaining points require actual effort and in-game input from the player. If it becomes a matter of a single upgrade earning a seller X number of points on an animal as well as an HPD price, you are essentially making points directly purchaseable which just means that those without the RL funds to buy tons of upgrades are going to really, really struggle to ever make any headway (which would especially come to a head during the mascot contest).

I do like the idea of splitting the HPB from upgrade sales, though; so a 6mo would earn both parties 3HPB, etcetera. For upgrade sellers, they can either use HPB or hoard them for the yearly exchange, which adds an extra 75mill onto the HPD they will have earned from the sale. And as 1HPD = roughly $1, that's essentially $3 worth of HPB per upgrade per player, which seems like a fair deal?

Now, I'm not one of the players with numerous upgrades so I'm aware that the 6HPB can go a long way to help funding the in-game purchase of upgrades for players who do, but if getting 3 each is a feasible option for both parties then it seems maybe a good compromise?

Jade, have I ever told you that I love your brain?

I don't disagree with any of your points. Maybe a solution also may incorporate taking a look at how the ticket process could be revamped.  Offering more points per set, driving the value up, but as you mentioned: the point system could/would now be inflated and the P2W probability increased. 

But it was always P2W anyway and maybe even after all of that has been said, there is a metric that ticket reward points must also rise to increase the intrinsic value of points... There will always be trade-offs and likely unintended consequence... so all together, this just may not be the move, but there may be multiple facets that must be considered for any of this to actually work (if it even would). 

All of that being said, maybe Con is on to something with a punch card/grab bag type of perk.  You could even create a new set of "higher value" items that could be in the grab bag.  This might make more sense if upgrade sellers would be interested, instead of transferring one problem into another area to inflate... but as Jade previously mentioned, it would place more burden on the staff to manage.

There very clearly is a lot to consider and plenty of rabbitholes to go down.

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I do have one chime about splitting the HPB and I may be sitting alone in this, but as an "upgrade seller" of the past, I don't think I would honestly care about gettign 3 HPB on top of the auction HPD.  Sure, a perk is a perk, but it wouldn't incentivize me to offer more uprade auctions (reminder: this is the root cause of this discussion about infalted upgrade prices) when cash is already tight.  But on the other hand, for those that don't have tighter RL bank accounts, sure, why not?  But I'm not sure what weight it would actually carry.

My thought process alone though for not caring about the 3 HPD is because I could just hop to the cash shop and buy 20 HPB for $18, so to me (if it were about HPB), I would just skip offering the upgrade sale and directly buy the HPB from the cash shop.  This doesn't help the supply of available upgrades in the auctions, which is the root cause of this whole conversation.

So really, I'm not sure how much the HPB split would actually solve, but I'm also only thinking about it on "surface level" versus in depth.  In terms of automation though, as Jade stated, it may be the simplest and easiest route (but perhaps not quite as effective).

As much as I want to get easy points on animals I really don't want the feature added into an upgrade perk. A lot of the highest pointed animals are owned by people that had thousands of real dollars to sink into the game and stashed mountains of HPD. Now sellers would get points and HPD to even further divide the gap. 

Same as everyone else, I'm thinking about what had changed from 5 or 10 years ago and for me that was growing up. I spent way more on HP in my teens and early 20's because I didn't have the bills that I have now. When I bought my house is when I had to basically stop HP. I would guess that is similar for most of the current players because we all grew up together more or less. So now I'm seeing the root problem as we are old and have other responsibilities now xD Seriously though, I think it's boiling down to lack of new players that stick and especially those with disposable income. Pointing this out does nothing to solve the problem and I know that's been a topic of discussion before. 

I look into other games to see what features really pull people in but mostly I see 3D graphics, specific sport training, genetics, and interactive gameplay that doesn't fit what HP is at it's core.