I'm aware this is a large, vague topic but some ideas have been getting thrown around chat that could add a level of challenge to the game. Right now, HP is set up with such a simple game play model: buy animals, gain points, breed, repeat. There is minimal difference between training a store animal vs a bred offspring, even when animals are trained to an extra ordinary amount of pounts. Unless someone is able to contnue to finacially invest, the hard work of those animals is washed out within 1 to 2 generations. Higher generations do get that extra point boost but in the grand scheme, this has a very little affect on lines. This really leans into the "pay-to-play" model. So what can we do to make it so HP is less about who has the most money?

Idea #1 - Random Events: This would happen when breeding animals, similar to the chances you have of getting twins. Other possibilities would be the offspring would die (call it failure to thrive, ect) or be born sterile. It's already standard practice to breed "back-up" and should a negative event take place, you would be left to your back-up, using a Cash Shop item, or resourcing out to another breeder for collaboration. I see the obvious benefits to this of encouraging players to breed/share lines even more than we do now as well as the Cash Shop purchases would pull money out of the economy. Purchasing HPBs to use in the Cash Shop would be a finacial gain for HP as well.

Idea #2 - Show Potential: I'm going to pre-face this by saying I'm aware that this would be a major overhaul to the game play of HP and would require a significant amount of programming to implement. Is that something within the budget? Would this even be considered? No idea but all the same, I would love to here what the players of HP think about increasing the complexity of the game in this way. This idea comes from trying to think of something that would have more "staying power" than points gained during an animal's lifetime. Right now, the high pointed animals are only valuable during their lifetime, they pass on a higher amount of points but then cease to add anything to future generations other than existing. What if each animal had a secondary attribute that contributed to it's value in addition to points? It would be a number value that contributed to how well an animal performed in shows. The higher the number, the better the animal does and the more points it would gain. The shows on HP are judged randomly right now and I'd still want there to be that "random" variable to simulate real life days that just don't go well. The scores are randomly multiple by 1-10% and then the placings are awarded to the horse with the highest score.
For example, 3 horses are entered in the same show with very similar showing potential scores. Lets say horse #1 has show potential of 100, horse #2 has 97, and horse #3 has 95. The show runs and horse #1's random multiplier was 1%, which results in a score of 101. Horse #2 got a multiplier of 6%, which results in a score of 106.7. Lastly, horse #3 got a multiplier of 5%, which results in a score of 101.85. This would mean, horse #2 wins first place, horse #3 places second, and horse #1 places third. This is all very hastily thrown together right now but hopefully that explains things enough to get the idea.
Next thing would be to figure out how this is passed on. A rough idea would be sire potential + dame potential divided by 2 then multipled by a "random" factor. So for this example, sire has 100 and dame has 97, and lets say the game randomly used a multiplier of 5%. 100+97=197, then 197/2=98.5, then 98.5x5%=103.4

I'm super excited to hear other views and ideas related to this so please share!

Random events could be fun, but sterile/not viable offspring just sounds annoying? idk if that really adds much to the game. And encouraging the buying of HPB just encourages the pay to play model of HP.

The show potential idea could be a lot of fun, though. Would that number be assigned randomly? Or if you bred together two horses with a high show potential, would the offspring have a better chance of also having a higher value?

HPBs would be more of a luxury to use, like if you only bred once and didn't end up with a viable offspring then you could look into HPBs. The norm would be to go back to when people bred multiple times to ensure they could continue their lines.

Thank you Jaya, I just added that part! Ideally the show potential would increase with each generation to keep improving the lines. I added a mock formula to how that might work.

Idea #1: We did have gelding/fixed odds in the game when it first began. Sam took it out at some point several years ago. I don't remember when specifically, but the youngest gelding was born in 2019 but is a store, same with fixed male dogs, but I'm not sure if she removed the breeding odds but kept geldings/fixed males in the store as an option for longer? It also predates the change log. Again, memory is vague on details, but I think it might have been removed because of the increase in backups that were just rotting on the game? If it matters, I could ask Sam why it was removed to see if that would change people's opinions on wanting that back? As for stillborns, I'm not sure how difficult that would be to program in.

Idea #2: It's an interesting idea...another game I play, Equination, has something like this. It's a fairly realistic thoroughbred racing game, so naturally genetics of the parents and their abilities play in to how well the offspring does at racing. Other aspects that contribute over there include training when the offspring is 1 (they're born at age 1) before it's of racing age at 2, track conditions etc. 

Anyways, I like the idea in concept, but that sort of genetic idea has never been what HP is as a game. HP has always been intended to be a "basic" horse and dog sim game. At one point (again, several years ago), Sam had intended to create two new games in the "phenomena" world, including Animal Phenomena (which had cats!) and...I want to say it was called Horse Phenomena Evolutions, but I could be wrong on that name. HP Evolutions was going to be more involved, with genetics including inherited stuff like you're describing, as well as colour genetics. I'm not sure at what point Sam killed the idea. I do remember AP was open for a brief amount of time but then had some sort of issue and was shut down. HP Evolutions or whatever it was called didn't even get to that point...might have even just gotten as far as the ideas phase.

If you're curious, AP's url still works: https://animalphenomena.com/

Not sure how this idea will sound to everyone but i thought I might just chip in with my 2cents! 

Back in the day playing LE (ludus equinus) they had a regular point system set up, just like HP now, but they also had stats. You get a store horse and you get like 7 stats (agility speed endurance temperment etc etc) and you had to raise those as well. It didnt really affect anything with the main point system, and the shows would have to become specified to the stats (IE they could be racing shows to gain endurance, jumping shows for agility, horsemanship shows for temperment, etc). You could also raise stats with training tickets. I realize that would be a huge undertaking as well but I remember liking it better because it just added a little challenge. Just a thought! 

edit: just read a similar thing above so i apologize for being repetitive! ha

I absolutely LOVE the idea of random events too! 

-posting from this account to be very clear my comments are from City the player, not staff-

Pleaseeeeeeeee no to #1. This sounds like my worst nightmare. There is currently no real market for backups and as someone who spends hours dedicated to my lines, there is nothing worse than seeing a horse languish on another players account. For this reason I breed once and once only. My lines take hours of dedication each week, and I spend my "entertainment" money on keeping them in 100 privates, to then have that potentially taken away... I think I'd have to seriously consider if I kept going. 

I would like to agree with Jayas sentiments that if the final foal ends up sterile, the only other option is to use cash shop options which reinforces the "pay to play" model and again, only the rich benefit. 

I would like to add, that just because I personally don't agree with it, that does not mean I am not all for suggestions and debate! 

On point one - I'm afraid that I would tend to agree with Jaya and City about the failed breedings etc. I understand that backups can be bred, but given how spaced out breedings have to be it would end up with people either taking a point hit and keeping foals that were bred several weeks before retirement, or having to spend HPB on retirement breedings - so, essentially, the players that can't afford to spend a great deal (or any) RLD on HP would be at a disadvantage. That could be balanced by shortening the interval between breedings and letting horses breed more often - but I'm not sure that's necessarily the right way forward, either.

As for the second point - I love the idea of this in theory, though I have no way how shallow/in-depth such a system would be or how easy it would be to integrate into HP as a game that has been functioning in one specific way pretty much since its inception. But I would absolutely be here for seeing any potential options explored that might offer animals some value - even if it is minimal - that isn't solely reliant on points and is potentially heritable. As a brief example, the foals we'll get from Ringwraith The Witch King will be epic, but a generation or two on from there, if we don't ticket them? Normal, privately trained horses that don't 'perform' any differently to store bought animals - which we know is how the game works so that's fine, but the notion of heritable bonuses and traits that go beyond the generation immediately following (and aren't limited to the generation awards) would be amazing. It would also seriously increase the potential demand for animals with impressive lines, as said lines might have more of a knock-on effect on their progeny (immediate and further down the line) - the horse sales market is so stale, so having an extra incentive to buy from established lines might inject a bit of life into it! Like I say, I have no idea if that is even doable in any shape or form, or whether it would alter the DNA of HP too significantly to be desirable, but that's just my little bit of input!

Also love to see all this being discussed and different ideas being tossed up for consideration. :)

Color genetics would be cool but my concern would be to take away from an already limited art community and I know that there is a good chunk of HP's community that just aren't a fan of the genetics. I love using Prism but I know how much work/time/money would be needed to actually add something like that to the game for each species/breed. I wish I had a crystal ball to look into a future where HP Evolutions existed. Would HP survive? My initial thoughts would be that our community could not support both and one would for sure surpass the other.  

I'd love to hear from Sam how it was decided to remove. These events are rare, think how often people get twins, and would I be sad if it happened to me? Sure but I'm also bored with the current model so I'd be willing to risk it. Since you can delete animals, breeding a second time has always been a non-issue for me anyway. If I don't want to sell, I just delete. For an average player, I still feel that the points gained in two weeks of training between the first and second breeding would not have a major impact. Using the Cash Shop wouldn't be necessary for most people since we already get HPBs and HPPs for activities in the game. If you're already spending big bucks on HP then it's hard to argue that an extra $5 will push things over the edge. To me this feature would an a upredictability to the game that we just don't have right now. You can literally plan your lines for the next 15 years with little thought or effort.

Just a quick note - not sure if your post was in response to mine or in general, trig :) - I wasn't actually referring to colour genetics, because I agree with you that the graphics and art community on this game is part of what makes it special. I was more suggesting high-level horses having heritable bonuses of some kind (performance bonuses, maybe? idk) that give their lines value beyond their immediate offspring, which I believe was potentially what you were suggesting in the second point of your original post? I may have misunderstood it, however, and i apologise if so.

We can agree to disagree about the first point, it's not something I'll ever be an eager fan of (regardless of how it may look, I absolutely cannot spend RLD on HP at the present time). xD

I don't know if anyone else here has ever played Furry Paws but they do have a somewhat similar system to what you're describing, I believe. They have something called an experience multiplier. Every store dog you purchase has a standard multiplier of 1.000. Puppies' multipliers are based off of their parents' levels at the time of breeding. So a highly trained pair of store dogs produces puppies with a much higher experience multiplier, which in turn gives those puppies a better advantage in their own training and showing careers. And if you keep up with your training the multiplier grows higher with each generation. I don't know how this would work on HP because the training system is a bit different. Hopefully some of my babble made sense here. =D

@Uta, more just a generalized state about why I didn't include colors in my heritable traits since Blitz brought up that it was part of the concept for HP evolutions :)

@Little Wolf, that sounds awesome actually! I'd love to see something like that where it build with each generation.

I am reading this as I am going through training - not sure if it was answered

@Blitz, I believe the gelding/sterile option was removed to a suggestion I had posted in the forums some years ago. There was a lot of support from players at the time - maybe the post is still here somewhere. I will search for it later tonight.

How I personally feel about sterile or death results from breedings: I and many players put a TON of effort into training lines - not to mention real life dollars. I would be very upset if I had spent hundreds++++ of real life dollars on a project only to have their foal die. I understand another breeding could be bought from the cash shop via HPD, but can you imagine spending all that real life money and then potentially spend real life money to get HPB to get your breeding? Sorry, but I don't agree with that idea.

Here is the forum post that sparked the removal of geldings: gelding - Forum Topic (horsephenomena.com)

I was supposed to respond to this yesty but crashed into bed early because I'm getting sick. It's not going to be as detailed as I want, as my wee little braino is glue today.

As discussed in chat yesterday, I do actually really like the idea of random events during breedings. Perhaps some kind of crossover between risk/reward, something like, a 1k points bonus/1k points deduction for "reasons." This could potentially tie into the second suggestion, perhaps in some basic form of hereditary-based trait? 

Personally, I feel that something is needed to perk that whole side of HP up a little. Not necessarily a major overhaul, but something to add a bit of spice to that side of the game. 

I like that, Skell. Or not even during breeding - maybe one day "your horse seems energetic today! They have 10 energy (must be used today!)" or something.

^ I really like that Jaya! 

I see both sides to this. It does sund really cool, but I also see the "annoyingness" people are talking about too.

but on an unrelated note, @blitz, I just looked up the Equination out of curiosity and created an account to try it out.

Maybe something could be put in place -- accounts can have up to X random events happen per day. 

But since I assume some random events would be negative, maybe you could turn them off in your profile? That way if someone doesn't want any, they could just keep playing as normal?

What about when you vet/groom your animals? Maybe occasionally instead of the current ailments and messages that appear now it could be some different events, like "your horse is feeling her oats today and has gained 10 energy for the week". Or something to that effect. 

That could work; it would really limit how often it can happen per animal, but that might be a good thing.

@Nad: Equination is cool. I've played it since I was in HS (so pre-2005!). I like it because it's very different from HL and HP. There isn't much in the way of socialization on it though...it's literally a "go on, train your horses, enter your horses in races that run up to 2 weeks later, sign off" sort of game. A year on the game is 3 human months. I will say, though, if people complain that HP has expensive upgrades (in USD I mean), you should see the prices on EQ! You have to upgrade using EQ Credits. Each credit is $1.15 USD. There are 2 tiers of upgraded account (second tier being the highest tier). A second-tier for 6 months is 45 credits, a year is 80 credits. So $92 USD/year of highest premium.

On the gelding thing, not going to ask Sam seeing as lacey asked! Totally thought it was earlier than that lol